Monday 8 June 2020 20:48, UK
In the sixth and final episode of The Eddie Jones Coaching Podcast, England's head coach talks a coach's journey, when to cut players and memorable sporting moments...
Alongside former Harlequins and Italy head coach Conor O'Shea as ever, Jones also discusses sliding doors moments in his career, rugby aspects the RFU and Jones are focusing on and understanding different rugby philosophies.
For almost every player or coach in sport, there comes a moment in time which can determine the path of a tournament, or even a career.
For Jones, which instances spring to mind?
"One match that comes clearly, I remember being involved with South Africa at the 2007 World Cup and we played Tonga," he said.
"We won the first two games quite easily against Samoa and England, and then played Tonga, where the bottom-half of the squad played. But on the bench, we had guys like (Victor) Matfield, John Smit, (Bakkies) Botha, Fourie du Preez, so it was a pretty celebrated bench.
"Anyway, Tonga got off to a flyer and led and probably about 10 minutes after half-time Jake [White, then South Africa head coach] decided to put the whole bench onto the field.
"We get in front, 30-25, and in the last play of the game Tonga make a break - and I can still see it now - down the right-hand side, chip over the top, no one's there, if the ball bounces in play the Tongan player scores and Tonga win. The ball bounces out and South Africa go on to win the World Cup.
"People don't realise the margins are so small in Test match rugby, and that's just one example."
What about in the club game? Were there ever moments were Jones was teetering on the brink?
"My first big professional coaching job with the Brumbies. They'd come second the previous year and I took over and managed to coach them to 10th.
"And then we started the next year and lost the first three. But we'd changed the way we played so we went to very much a sequence-type game, which was quite new in those days.
"Then we played the Bulls and I can still remember there was 6,000 people at the stadium - the crowd wasn't turning up, the weather was terrible, the Bulls had been on quite a good roll.
"But I just remember the best players, Joe Roff, George Gregan, played outstandingly well and we won 73-9. We never turned back after that.
"We went on to win something like 83 per cent of our games for the next two-and-a-half seasons.
"You always need those good players to stand up for you."
Having coached for some of the biggest nations, clubs and on the most high-profile stages of them all - three World Cup finals in fact - Jones has long since been lauded for his communication skills with players.
Having come into coaching from teaching, what benefits did such a background and start to the profession offer him?
"I was lucky to do schoolteaching, I think that gave me a head start in coaching.
"For the first two years, I was trained as a PE teacher, and you couldn't get a job in my area for 15 years. So I became a supply teacher in mathematics.
"And because I was a supply teacher, the teachers would take the days off when they had the worst classes - which is usually bottom of the years in maths, and they don't want to learn those kids.
"And that was the best coaching experience I had. Working out how to get a group of kids who didn't particularly want to do maths, to work together and learn.
"Looking back, that was the best coaching premiership I had and I'd encourage anyone, particularly ex-players who want to become coaches, to think about doing other occupations which will help you assess a group, getting them to work together and being able to communicate effectively."
Broadening a coaches' experience is so important in the current game, and for Jones the success of the All Blacks over the last number of years has much to do with significant coaches working across both hemispheres.
"There is definitely a difference in philosophy of rugby between the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere.
"It's because of the conditions we play under - for no other reason. Southern hemisphere is much more about ball usage and having it for longer periods of time.
"Whereas the northern hemisphere, and I'm generalising here, is more about ball winning and territory.
"And I think the coaches who have done the best, like Graham Henry and Steve Hansen, two of the best coaches we've seen, they cut their mustard with Wales and learned from the northern hemisphere game.
"And it was no coincidence that the All Blacks went from an 80 per cent winning team to a 90 per cent winning team with their influence, because they prioritised ball winning as an important part of Test rugby.
"The All Blacks then became such a hard team to beat."
What about for England and Jones? What aspects are the RFU and Jones concentrating on at present to advance the success of the game and national side?
"Generally I have a plan, and at the moment, we're working really hard on two particular aspects of our game.
"Firstly, the game itself. So we are delving deep to see where we can improve, talking to different coaches around the world about different aspects to see if there's anything to learn.
"And the second thing is then really targeting communication. Because at the end of the day, that's one of the coaches' main jobs, to communicate.
"We're looking to see how we can communicate better, and we can relate to our own coaches and then to the players better.
"We're looking around the world to see who is doing it well."
Another vital aspect to Jones through the course of his coaching career, has been the requirement to evolve with the times and differing needs of players.
The one-size-fits-all style of communication which perhaps existed 20 to 30 years ago, is largely redundant in the current game, as Jones highlights with a story about the Wallabies' George Smith - one of the finest flankers ever to play the sport.
"I remember George Smith, I brought him in as a young guy, he was 18 or 19 years old, and I was always pretty hard on him.
"And then I remember about two years ago, he was playing for Suntory Sungoliath [in Japan], and I happened to be at the game and he was playing terrible, he was the worst player on the field.
"I remember at half-time, and normally I would have been quite hard and direct on him, but I just said: 'Why do you think you're being so easy to tackle?', and then in the second half he changed the way he attacked and became the winning margin for his team.
"And I think that shows how you've got to evolve your coaching. We used to think we had to tell the players everything, and now one of the most important strings you've got is good questioning.
"For young players today, it probably is the tool you've got to be good at. But you've also got to know that sometimes they've got to be told. Because you can't be asking questions of someone who hasn't got the body of knowledge to answer it.
"It's getting that balance, and it's one of the hardest things for coaches to get right."
Evolving relationships and communication techniques is one thing, but another is to evolve the staff and players within a team.
When do you know the time for change?
"You never really know but you've got to make an estimation.
"When I was a young coach I went to see Wayne Bennett, who coached the England rugby league team and has coached for 25 years in Australia at the highest level.
"And I remember one of the things he said was when you've got a good young player coming through and you have an older guy who maybe has one or two or three years left, let the older guy go and bring the younger guy through a year early.
"He said because you'll get eight or nine years out of the young guy and the older guy will go off and play somewhere else.
"And it is so true. Knowing when the time is right to bring a younger guy through and regenerate your whole organisation. And it's the same with coaching."
Lastly, aside from rugby and cricket - Jones' two sporting loves - if he was to pick one sporting moment, what would it be?
"Goodness me…that's a hard one.
"It's funny watching The Last Dance, because at the time when the Chicago Bulls were having that run, I was in Japan and basketball is a really popular sport in Japan.
"So I ended up watching all of those finals, and I can remember that (Michael) Jordan three-pointer.
"Just his ability under pressure to do the big play. And the interesting thing watching that show, is the amount of times he missed, but he still had the courage to have a go.
"That's the sign of a good sportsman."
Listen to The Eddie Jones Coaching Podcast here
